From Sibyl: Hello Kathleen & Joe: I was quite inspired by and impressed with your paddock paradise on
the video. It looks like you all have done a fantastic job! I have one very practical question, however. What do you do to clean up manure? On such steep, rocky inclines, it would seem that the old stall-pick-and-wheelbarrow system would not be satisfactory. I am in the process of shopping for a small horse property, and
seeing what you have done with 1.5 acres of varied terrain has really opened my eyes to other possibilities. No need to limit my search to featureless bottomland, it seems. Thanks for the inspiration! I really appreciate your taking the time to read this email. I look forward to hearing from you.

Response: Great question, Sibyl. We were asking the same thing when we first opened the gate on the big pasture. When the horses were in the two smaller pastures (which were really just steep turnouts, see www.thesoulofahorse.com/horseboarding.htm), we definitely had to muck twice a day (at feeding time) because the size versus quantity of horses and poop way favored the poop. When they went onto the 1.5 acre hill, we attempted to do the same thing, dragging a small spreader behind the gator at feeding time. It didn’t take long to determine this procedure was not going to work. Poop was mostly where the spreader couldn’t go. So it was back to the internet and more research. What I found was that it takes five to eight days for a fly egg to go through its process and ultimately hatch... and it NEEDS MOISTURE for that to happen. In this climate (north San Diego county) there are very few times of the year when the sun doesn’t shine for five days straight. So we now call the pasture Camp Kickapoo. Because that’s what we do, morning and night, as we feed and put out the hay in fifty to sixty piles all around the pasture, we kick poo. I mean KICK POO! Shatter it, spreading it in tiny pieces. Which of course allows it to dry very quickly in the Southern California sun. Both Kathleen and I have a couple of pairs of good rubber mucking boots and at least one pair of real boots on the, shall we say, later end of the life cycle. That’s what we go to pasture in. And we attempt to do as good a job with our kicking as the spreader would do (the forward kick seems to break it up into smaller pieces than the side of the foot soccer kick :). Kathleen has even learned to kick on the fly from the Gator while I’m driving when there’s a pile close enough to our little Gator path.

We also put out fly predators every three weeks. And part of our diet regimen (see www.thesoulofahorse.com/diet-nutrition.htm) includes an ounce a day of Dr. Dan’s Big Check, which is a natural combination of antioxidants and garlic which is a good fly/mosquito repellant. The entire combination works very well. I won’t say we are totally without flies, we’re not. Especially in the hottest weather. But the combination keeps the horses virtually fly-free, except maybe around the face (where there’s no fleshiness for the garlic to accumulate) and eyes in the hottest weather. At those times, we’ll either rub a little fly repellant on the face and around (but of course not in) the eyes and ears... or sometimes we’ll resort to fly masks for a short period. Which is rare.

The kicked poop very quickly dries and turns to grassy dust and mixes with the soil (what little there is). There are certain “potty” areas that tend to get accumulations of kicked poo and when that happens we’ll go out with a rake (and it’s only from time to time) and spread those areas as a spreader would.

This has been our plan for about a year and a quarter now and it’s been working just great. I visit other places from time to time and we have fewer flies by far than most who muck and send away in dumpsters, or muck and compost. And at the last fecal check only two of our six had the very slightest of parasite indications. Hay placement avoids any area that has been used as a potty. We have had as many as seven horses in this pasture, which actually could be a bit larger than 1.5 acres, but definitely less than 2 acres. As few as five horses. And the system works well, to no detriment to the horses and much more convenience to us than hauling out.

My suspicion is that with twice as many horses, it wouldn’t work as well. Too many for the space. And I doubt this space to horse ratio would work in the North Carolina mountains where there are far fewer sunny days and much more moisture in the environment. I would only be guessing when I say you might need as much as an acre a horse. And when there’s actually grass in the pasture that horses will graze on you might need more. I read that under those conditions horses will usually single out one or two potty areas and that’s where most of the poop will be. Under those conditions, maybe a combination of mucking the most-used areas and kicking the random piles.

What we try to always keep in mind is that all we’re really trying to do is to make everything be as close to the way it would be if the horses were in the wild. Their living quarters, their diet including multiple choices depending on their wants and needs, their feet, their movement, etc. And what most horse owners (us included in days past) want is a nice, neat, one-answer-works-for-all solution for every issue with their horses. And they don’t want to spend too much time digging and reading enough boring technical information to become knowledgeable enough to be able to make their own decisions, and spend enough time working with it to see when changes need to made, and be comfortable making them. Only now am I becoming comfortable enough in the diet arena to vary this and toss in that from day to day and horse to horse based upon what I see in the pasture. I have virtually weaned our horses (and myself!) from the processed feeds that contain so much bad stuff (like processed fats, molasses, corn, etc), and no two of our herd receive exactly the same, yet they all live together. But that’s another story.

Hope all that helps.

Joe

From Patrice S: Hello, I have been reading the comments on your Q&A page and the negative comments are the most shocking. I guess people never change (remember people once argued that the world was flat). You can show them case after case and be met with "Oh what do you know" I have been trimming for four years and have already helped horses to heal and become comfortable. I guess there are three categories of people on any issue 1) open minded 2) undecided but open minded and then 3) the annoying closed minded skeptic.
 I get great enjoyment in seeing a healthy fully functioning bare hoof, knowing that God knows more what he was doing when he created the horse and his hoof then we sometimes have known over history in keeping it whole and healthy. Patrice Sager -Natural hoofcare practitioner -WV

Response: Remember what German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said, “All truth passes through three phases. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.” I hope I’m still here for phase 3.

From Linda G: Hi Joe and Kathleen, I linked to your website from Pete Ramey's site.  I just wanted to drop a line and tell you I enjoyed going through your site.  I think you did a great job of pulling the important concepts together on your "It's Never Too Late" page.  I'm so glad to find that more and more people are becoming interested in a more natural and healthful way of life for their horses.  I live in southern Maine and have been keeping my (9) horses as naturally as possible for quite a while now (barefoot, outside 24/7- including winters, which are pretty cold, no blankets, forage diets, no grain, treeless saddle -Ansur, which is a great saddle!, etc., etc.) I'm pretty much on my own with my "total package" philosphy of horse keeping/riding/training around here, so it's encouraging and exciting to here of other's who have the same beliefs. Best Regards.

Response: Many thanks, Linda. Keep spreading the word.

Response: Hi Linda... first, congratulations. You’re working in the right direction for your horse. Next, the more time you spend on our barefoot and horsemanship pages, and check out the various barefoot links, the more knowledge you will gain and the better networking within the community.

I’m forwarding your email to Yvonne Welz, asking if she can add any insight. She publishes The Horse’s Hoof magazine which is terrific. A must read. And she or some of her contacts might know folks in France. I know she has many contacts in the UK.

Next, let me add the little I know: Our six are all barefoot (less than a year and a half), all with the Wild Horse Trim, and all are good, sound, with rock solid hooves on any terrain including concrete or asphalt. Although there is still a lot of research going on, what it basically comes down to is: 1) Barefoot with the Wild Horse Trim... 2) Movement. Lots of it. Ours are out in the pasture (steep and rocky – see the video on our website) 24/7, and their hay is scattered in more than 50 small piles all over the 1.5 acre pasture.... 3) Diet. Basic, not fancy. Minimal sugar. We feed ours 1/2 scoop Purina Strategy morning and night... one half flake alfalfa morning and night... and one half bale bermuda to share morning and night. And that’s it. No supplements. No sweets. The bulk of their diet should be roughage in the form of grass hay. Fifty million years of genetics have determined this. And it should be eaten a little at a time scattered across the entire 24-hour day. They have tiny tummies and need to be digesting fairly constantly.

Read Pete Ramey’s book (www.hoofrehab.com) and you’ll be able to watch over your trimmer’s shoulder and say: “do it this way” if necessary. Or be able to do it yourself. Pete also has a new set of DVDs coming out in a couple of months that will be terrific.

About Dr. Strasser, yes, I heard about the UK issues. Dr. Strasser is brilliant and does mostly serious rehab work. There are one’s in the states who do not (for some inexplicable reason) understand that  that most of her work is rehab. One in particular caused similar problems to the ones you mentioned, with Pat and Linda Parelli and now they won’t touch barefoot with a ten foot pole. Hopefully that’ll change. I’m a huge fan of Pete Ramey. He brings lame horses that have had folks saying they should be put down back to full health... without EVER making them sore or in pain. You should definitely study Pete.

Response from Yvonne at The Horses Hoof Magazine: Cash gave you some very good advice! I agree, there has been much damage done by people taking short courses, especially. I think that someone not previously trained in hoof care should take a minimum course (or perhaps apprenticeship) of 1 year before becoming a professional. As in all other things, there are good ones and there are bad ones.

About supplements, you do need to make sure that your horse has a balanced diet, and adequate minerals and vitamins, but usually hoof supplements are not necessary. There is a magazine in France, The Natural Horse Planet: http://www.naturalhorseplanet.com/ I think that they promote barefoot horses.

From Mickey: "The horse Must have room to flow the blood to all the parts of the leg to the foot to go barefoot.reading the story I see mr camp has room for that. Being kind to another can gain trust,more of that in the world would be nice =). Horses that sit in stalls and have there daily movement only a couple hours a day or on the weekend ,Need shoes. It would be great if all horses had 5 areas to live on all day until they have to go to work.=) bye for now."

Response: Mickey, the research says that even horses who live in a stall can reap the benefits of barefoot with the wild horse trim. They just need to be trimmed more often because they are not getting any natural wear on the hoofs. But with the "Wild Horse Trim" at proper intervals, their hoofs can still prosper and they will be healthier. The problem with the shoe, under any circumstances, is that it restricts the blood flow in the hoof and back up the leg. Arizona vet Dr. Tomas Teskey says,"One of the greatest damages that occurs because of the application of steel shoes to the horse's hoof is the greatly reduced circulation within the hoof, and the diminished return of blood back up toward the heart through the veins of the lower leg. Shoes interfere with the hoof's natural blood-pumping mechanism. The natural hoof expands and contracts with each step, letting blood in as it spreads upon impact with the ground, and squeezing blood up and out of the hoof as it contracts when it is not bearing weight. If this sounds familiar, like the blood pumping mechanism of a heart, that's because it is--natural hooves perform a critical function as supplementary 'hearts'. This vital heart-like mechanism is greatly restricted by immobilizing the hoof with steel shoes."

Hehe wrote: "Two whole years and now he's an expert qualified to author books on the subject? Two years isn't long enough to do a study on this much less to learn all the varibles and background information. I say leave it to vets, farriers and long term horse people."

Response: Sorry you feel that way, but Joe has never said that his two years of experience qualifies him to give advice, only that his studies of the decades and decades of experience of the folks whose knowledge he is passing along to you is qualified. People like clinician Clinton Anderson who has taken all fifty of his horses barefoot with the wild horse trim. And the Houston Mounted Police Patrol which has taken all of their horses barefoot even though the horses spend every day of their lives carrying mounted policemen around on asphalt, concrete, gravel, even marble and granite. And now, their horses are healthier, their vet bills are lower, and everybody, horse and rider, is happier. People like vet Dr. Tomas Teskey, and natural hoof specialists like Pete Ramey, Eddie Drabek, Jaime Jackson, Dr. Hiltrud Strasser, James and Yvonne Welz, and others. But please don't take our word for all this. Do the research yourself. Start with the links above, and then branch out on your own. There is an enormous amount of research out there. Gobble it up. Then, don't let others who have not done the research disuade you. Someone once said that all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed violently. Third, it is accepted as self evident. Give your horse the gift of barefoot. Then stand back and watch him frolic.

From Farrier : "I agree with Hehe, this guy is no where near an expert, and just because that worked with his horses doesn't mean it will wor with all. I have been a farier for 8 years. 3 of whichI was working as an apprentice and was still learning after I had gone to school for this trade. Some horses do fine with no shoes, but others have genetic defects or injuries that require corrective shoeing and other types of measures that must be taken. This makes it seem like every horse can go without shoes, they can't. The "Natural Hoof" was a phase that has come and gone, I personally have articles and photos to show my customers that convinces them that for most horses traditional trimming and insome cases shoes are the way to go. Definately consult your vet or farrier about your horses type of feet and any problems before you go changing what you are doing."

Response: You're right Farrier, Joe is not an expert. But as I said in the response above the decades and decades of experience of the folks whose knowledge he is passing along to you does make them experts, or certainly very knowledgeable on the subject. Check out the links above, then do some research on your own. I think you'll find the results very astonishing. According to veterinarian Dr. Hiltrud Strasser, no matter what you've heard to the contrary, the horse living in the Ice Age, the present-day wild horse, and the high-performance domestic breeds of today are all anatomically, physiologically, and psychologically alike. They all share the same biological requirements for health, long life, and soundness. In other words, we could not only be making the horse's life as good as it is in the wild, we could be making it better. At least as healthy. And happier! This addresses the concerns of some who are worried that the domestic horse has had his true genetics bred out of him. A few generations of focused breeding (none of which was intended to make the horse unhealthy) simply cannot erase the genteics of fifty-four million years. I have found no medical authority who even considers the possibility. The genetics are there and will take over, given the opportunity and the proper trim for recovery. even a recent president of your American Farriers Association said, "The (horse's) foot was designed to be unshod, Anything that you add to the foot, like a horseshoe that is nailed on, is going to interfere with the foot's natural process. Most horseshoes have six to eight nails, possibly one to three clips, all of which constrict the foot's ability to expand and contract. Add pads, packing, any number of alternatives to the shoe, and you create a gait alteration. It all interferes with the natural process of the mechanism."

From 'Not Really Surprised': "It amazes me how many people "get into horses" for a short time (a couple of years is that in the animal world) and think they know better than generations of experienced people who came before them. And so many of them have really "loud voices". So it doesn't really surprise, just disgust me, that this guy gets two years around horses under his belt and thinks he can re-educated us all. I feel sorry for the poor suckers who believe what he says and writes, and then don't shoe their horses (probably in part to save money because it does cost a lot) and end up with a lot of sore footed horses that an experienced farrier/shoer has to fix. Unridden horses can go unshod if their stabling/corral/pasture conditions are good (some of the previous comments are quite knowledgeable), but it is the exception rather than the rule for a regularly ridden horse not to need shoes and/or often corrective shoeing. Horses are subject to a miriad of hoof/leg problems with approximately 1,000 lbs on top of four comparatively small hooves, and a well trained and experienced farrier is as valuable as a vet (and I don't mean two years experience!). But what do I know, I've only been around horses for almost fifty years .. "

Response: Natural Hoof Specialist Eddie Drabek says, "I've had horses brought to me from owners who swore their horses 'had feet that grow abnormally, had bad genetics, could never be barefoot, have brittle hooves, heels grow but toes don't, toes grow but heels don't, have cracks that will never go away,' and so forth... (I've heard it all)....but every single one has been taken successfully barefoot with the proper balanced trim and have beautiful feet to show for it. And I'm talking hundreds. I simply wouldn't have dropped everything and changed my entire career if I wasn't amazed with the results I was having. I was just at a horse show this past weekend watching many of my clients' horses compete. Not a little po-dunk show, rather a big time show with competitors from as far as Canada and Australia. By popular belief about their high performance bloodlines and their 'genetically bad hooves', these horses should not be able to be barefoot, but they all are (most for 3 years now), competing right up there with the shod horses, and they have better feet than ever before."

As to the weight of the rider being a problem, pleased the article on Houston Mounted Police Patrol. These horses, all barefoot, carry policeman around all day on asphalt, and concrete. And are much healthier than three years ago when they were wearing shoes.

Walt Taylor, of the American Farriers Association, was quoted is an article in the American Farriers Journal (November, 2000) saying that 90% of the domestic horses in the world (that's 122 million horses) have some degree of lameness and are still being used. Less than 5% of horses in the wild have any kind of lameness.

Natural Hoof Specialist and author Jaime Jackson says, "The bare hoof is trimmed to optimize what we call the 'hoof mechanism' - the natural flexing and contracting of the hoof as it bears weight and unloads. The mechanism is very important for optimal blood circulation and shock dissipation - in short, for a healthy hoof. The horseshoe weakens the hoof's natural structure and impedes the mechanism. It prevents natural callusing. It prevents natural shock absorbency. And it imperils every growth corium and every facet of blood circulation known in the hoof." The "wild horse trim" replicates what the horse would be doing to his own hoof were he in the wild.

I think you'll agree that Joe is not passing along his own two-years of experience, but the decades upon decades of those he has studied. Hopefully that helps.